“Cycle key to clear battery error” with dead battery

[Cyrus David]

18 EX model, sat for couple months with a completely dead batt (I know this is a big no-no for any lithium battery) and now this message and bike will not take a charge.
Have removed the battery and plan to disassemble to see if it can be charged at the pack level then reassemble to see if it will charge on the bike. I have a general understanding after much reading how the cell/packs are constructed. I don’t believe the contractor in the battery is closing. (P.s. I understand clearly the risks of opening up this battery and the precautions I need to take and have experience with maintenance on high voltage electrical systems).
Let me know if anyone has any other trick for engaging the charger with a dead battery and this error.
Thanks.

 

[snydes]

It’s possible your problem is related to the 9v in the ACM. I’d try this first;

 

[Cyrus David]

Great video! I’ll try that now! Thanks so much!

 

[snydes]

Great video! I’ll try that now! Thanks so much!

You have to use an Energizer L522 Ultimate Lithium 9v though. Let us know how you make out.

 

[datadog]

It's possible that it's the 9v. Make sure you replace it with the exact same type of battery. You can find them at Lowe's and I believe the guys at WMR keep them in stock.

About disassembling the pack: Besides the obvious high voltage danger, note that all the packs were pressure tested at the factory for leaks, and if the pack is not perfectly sealed, water can make it's way in (via either submerging or just humidity), and this will set off a Code 37 or 38 humidity sensor error that latches and will not go away until the problem is resolved. As there are no spare batteries available, I would recommend caution before taking any pack apart.

 

[Cyrus David]

It's possible that it's the 9v. Make sure you replace it with the exact same type of battery. You can find them at Lowe's and I believe the guys at WMR keep them in stock.

About disassembling the pack: Besides the obvious high voltage danger, note that all the packs were pressure tested at the factory for leaks, and if the pack is not perfectly sealed, water can make it's way in (via either submerging or just humidity), and this will set off a Code 37 or 38 humidity sensor error that latches and will not go away until the problem is resolved. As there are no spare batteries available, I would recommend caution before taking any pack apart.

Understood, I see they used some non hardening sealant on the case covers of the battery. I just pulled the 9V out and it tests 9.3vdc but when I load it with a bulb for just seconds it takes about a min to rise above 9v again. It’s date stamp is 0116 which I assume is Jan 2016 (weird as bike is an 18’) . I replacing regardless before I break into the pack

 

[OneLapper]

Did you just pick up this bike?

 

[Cyrus David]

Ok, so replaced the 9v batt in the ACM with a new energizer lithium and no joy. Same error code.
Pulled the main battery baaaack out and opened her up. The total pack voltage is only 179vdc when measured at the main bus connections. Pulled 1 of the 4 cell-packs out and it measured about 45vdc so that tells me 180/4=45 so prob my cell packs are all even voltage and good.. I realize it’s fairly depleted at 179v as it’s a 300+ volt DC pack. There seems to be a contractor at the main top board which I plan to disassemble and bench test next. I’m fairly confident the battery contactor is not closing and putting the batt power on the bus. So either the pack voltage is too low and the contactor is being inhibited to close (by some FM logic of the main board) or it is just stuck open.
Next step is to test that contactor then to try to individually charge the cell-packs to about 75VDC each. Boy it would be nice to have a wiring diagram from Alta! Even if they were still in business they would not hand that out. If i’m Sounding crazy please chime in!

 

[Redwolf]

...If i’m Sounding crazy please chime in!

It's a thin line between crazy and brave...

 

[Mark911]

This is a pretty good source of information. The "white papers" are quite good. Li-Ion BMS - Lithium-Ion Battery Management Systems and large battery packs

Pretty soon we'll be changing out cells like it was no more complicated than doing a top end on a two stroke (just more dangerous!).

BTW, my pack was pretty dead after sitting a couple months torn apart. Make sure to balance everything after you get some charge into the modules. Even though each module of my pack sat in the same room (temp/etc) for that entire time two modules decided to self-drain faster. I ended up with almost a 0.1v difference between the low and high modules, although both the high and low modules were within .004v of each other. I guess two different "batches/lots" of cells were used in my pack. You might encounter some coulomb counting issues after you get things back together as the pack will need to reset the count and this might take a few cycles before the BMS knows how much energy the pack can hold. Until then you might not be able to get fully charged.

 

[OneLapper]

Sounds like you figured it out. Without sufficient battery pack voltage, the contactor can't close to initialize the charge cycle.

 

[Cyrus David]

Well, pulled the upper board and checked the two contractors that allow batt to connect to the bus (high voltage connector to the bike) and they both actuate and make a .75ohm contact with as low as 9VDC and the x1/x2 coils both read a solid 75ohms. Obviously there must be a regulator/rectifier in the workings of that upper board that makes the 12vdc to run the low voltage supply for the bike and the two battery internal contactors.
Next step is to try to find a DC power supply capable of putting out 75VDC with a few amps to charge the four packs. I don’t know how to trick the Alta charger into charging the pack out of the bike. It needs a load and has some protected circuits that it monitors before it will put out the 300v from its cord/plug. This would be the best way for me to charge the pack.

 

[Cyrus David]

This is a pretty good source of information. The "white papers" are quite good. Li-Ion BMS - Lithium-Ion Battery Management Systems and large battery packs

Pretty soon we'll be changing out cells like it was no more complicated than doing a top end on a two stroke (just more dangerous!).

BTW, my pack was pretty dead after sitting a couple months torn apart. Make sure to balance everything after you get some charge into the modules. Even though each module of my pack sat in the same room (temp/etc) for that entire time two modules decided to self-drain faster. I ended up with almost a 0.1v difference between the low and high modules, although both the high and low modules were within .004v of each other. I guess two different "batches/lots" of cells were used in my pack. You might encounter some coulomb counting issues after you get things back together as the pack will need to reset the count and this might take a few cycles before the BMS knows how much energy the pack can hold. Until then you might not be able to get fully charged.

Mark, how did you charge yours while disassembled? Most VDC power supplies are 30vdc max that i’ve Seen.

 

[Cyrus David]

This is a pretty good source of information. The "white papers" are quite good. Li-Ion BMS - Lithium-Ion Battery Management Systems and large battery packs

Pretty soon we'll be changing out cells like it was no more complicated than doing a top end on a two stroke (just more dangerous!).

BTW, my pack was pretty dead after sitting a couple months torn apart. Make sure to balance everything after you get some charge into the modules. Even though each module of my pack sat in the same room (temp/etc) for that entire time two modules decided to self-drain faster. I ended up with almost a 0.1v difference between the low and high modules, although both the high and low modules were within .004v of each other. I guess two different "batches/lots" of cells were used in my pack. You might encounter some coulomb counting issues after you get things back together as the pack will need to reset the count and this might take a few cycles before the BMS knows how much energy the pack can hold. Until then you might not be able to get fully charged.

I just read in the white pages that most BMS controllers will not allow a load below 2vdc per cell. I’m well below that if my 50cell pack is at 45v.... also read that most lithium ion cells will not recover below the 1.5v range. I may be dealing with a 70lb boat anchor..

 

[Mark911]

I can't believe (understand) how the cells could have self-discharged THAT MUCH in a couple of months. In general, Li-Ions are pretty darn good at holding charge when no loads are applied. Are you sure there are no sneak paths that the BMS couldn't circumvent? Anyway, I can't remember where I read it, probably some e-bicycle forum, but I kinda remember a way to get a cell that's as low as you say back up and running (at least in the short term). Google it. But you are talking about WAY more than a couple of cells!!!!!

You may need to resort to doing sub groups within the module using jumpers attached to the corresponding fuse wires. By the time you get through one round of charging the modules will be out of balance again. That's when you'll need to connect all the modules in parallel (assuming the delta V between mods is within reason) and let them self-balance. You'll still probably have capacity imbalances, but the BMS should even this out over time (discharge/charge cycles).

Note: the above is not an Alta approved procedure and is a generic answer to a specific application. Collateral damage may result.

 

[snydes]

@Cyrus David , 2018 EX? It’s interesting, there is apparently another member @Cody129 not far from you with the identical symptoms on a 2017 MX. You guys might want to start a dialogue.

 

[Motophyllic]

If all your efforts fail, I’m interested in buying the bike from you as is.

 

[Cyrus David]

If all your efforts fail, I’m interested in buying the bike from you as is.

Don’t say that! I gotta get this baby going. I’ve just ordered a 300v power supply to charge the internal packs and see if that will do it. I’m gonna get her back alive. A wiring diagram for the bike would have sped things way up if I only had one..

 

[Motophyllic]

I wish I knew more about these bikes to help you!! Last thing I want is a guy to lose his bike. Please don’t take the offer the wrong way. I just love these bikes so much that I want to stock pile as many as I can. Good luck my friend.

 

[Cyrus David]

I wish I knew more about these bikes to help you!! Last thing I want is a guy to lose his bike. Please don’t take the offer the wrong way. I just love these bikes so much that I want to stock pile as many as I can. Good luck my friend.

All good. I’ll let you know if I go that route but i’m going to try like hell to rebuild this battery. If i’m Successful I could make a business out of it lol..