6.6kw elcon charger

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#1
In Elcon's uhf can bus charger line the alta rapid charger is the 3.3kw version:
3.3KW UHF CAN bus chargers

Anyone know if alta tried the 6.6kw model and reasons why was never offered?
6.6KW UHF CAN bus chargers

edit: sorry, after thinking about changes required, would not be possible w/out firmware mod. Most likely the unit is watts, not percent. The bcu/bms firmware controls the charging rate.
 

Rashid510

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#2
In Elcon's uhf can bus charger line the alta rapid charger is the 3.3kw version:
3.3KW UHF CAN bus chargers

Anyone know if alta tried the 6.6kw model and reasons why was never offered?
6.6KW UHF CAN bus chargers

I do not recall, but what I do know is who you have linked is the distributor for Elcon (Electric Conversions) and Elcons are TC chargers from China. I believe Alta went to the direct supplier of that charger.

Could try to use a 6.6kw as long as you get the right CAN Baud rate setup by Electric Conversions and harness connector wired. Souriau is the supplier of that plug.
 

Rashid510

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#4
So the Elcon should work from the configuration of the voltage HK-J-H440-20 would be the correct one for the Alta pack.

Specifically...the DCCP might not like the signal from the 6.6 since it was configured for the 3.3kw.
 

bluefxstc

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#5
This is what the Electric Conversions web site says about CAN communication for the standard charger(PFC). I am assuming it is the same for the UHF, but it could be different.

"The charger expects to receive every second a message from the BMS with CAN ID 1806E5F4 and 8-byte data with the voltage and current requested".

Will you get any extra charge current from a 6.6kw charger than a 3.3kw charger? It depends on how much current the bike request. The charger is capable of providing more current, but if the bike doesn't request it, then you will not get it. I believe. but don't know, that this is why early Alta's will not take full advantage of the fast charger without a firmware upgrade. The bike simply doesn't request the additional current available with the fast charger.

The other issue you may have is the wire size on the bike. I am not sure if the wire on the bike, or the rest of the circuits, is big enough to safely handle the additional current. 3.3kw at 350 V is 9.4A, but at 6.6kw it is 19A. That is a pretty big difference. If Alta only put smaller wire in the charger port/circuit to save weight, it may get a bit warm if you double the current with a larger charger.
 
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#6
The other issue you may have is the wire size on the bike. I am not sure if the wire on the bike, or the rest of the circuits, is big enough to safely handle the additional current. 3.3kw at 350 V is 9.4A, but at 6.6kw it is 19A.
seems the orange romex wire connections is 10 gauge / 30 amp?

but doesn't matter unless someone has the dccp source code to share.
 

bluefxstc

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#7
The bikes may currently request more current, say 12A which would be 4.2kw, but because the charger is only 3.3kw that is all you get. If the bike request more current than the charger is able to provide, the charger is the limit. If the charger can provide more current than the bike request, then it is the bike that limits the charge. We just don't know what the bike requests and if the bike or the charger is the limiting factor.

Someone with the ability to record the CAN traffic could probably figure out what the bike is requesting, but it would take some programming skills that I don't have. I don't think it would be unusual for the bike to request more than the charger is able to produce. Doing this would ensure the bike initially received all power/current the charger could deliver so there may be some gains to be had, we just don't know.

The real value of CAN control is in the balance phase of the charge. With CAN control the DCCP can throttle the charge rate way back to say 0.5-1A, or even lower, to protect the balance circuits.
 

snydes

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#8
My generator has a volt-ampere meter, so I check it periodically during charging when I’m away with the bikes. There is a very noticeable difference in the draw once some heat gets in the batteries (less draw), so it appears that there are some adjustments being made to the requested charge rate to compensate for heat build up. I don’t know if there would be any room for improving the charge time without somehow overcoming those existing limitations. Possibly faster charging for your first charge of the day on a cold pack? The real appeal for quicker recharges though is when you are out riding and putting heat into the battery, so that wouldn’t really help. Just something to consider.
 
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#10
There is a very noticeable difference in the draw once some heat gets in the batteries (less draw), so it appears that there are some adjustments being made to the requested charge rate to compensate for heat build up.
Would VTC6's get hot at 1.1c (6.6/5.8) charge rate?
spec has:
Standard charge current:3A (1C)
Max charge current:5A

@snydes are you seeing the bcu/dccp throttle charging when <80% charged?
 

snydes

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#11
@schwankl , yes, according to what I see on the generator it is. I’m going to be winging this off of memory but say the first time back on the charger I will see something like 3150 volt-amperes and if I’m putting it right back on after some additional run time I’d see 2950ish at the same SOC. @Bloak and I had a discussion about this once awhile back as he was running some tests with his generator for me to determine if it would handle charging two bikes. I’ll have to see if I can find that info or maybe he will chime in. I don’t think as is the bikes are utilizing 100% of the chargers output, or if they do it’s only when dead cold. Also, as further evidence during the 24 hours race the charging was noticeably slower as the race went on and the batteries became heat soaked. Didn’t have the readout on that particular generator to actually see the reduced draw though.

Isn’t there a CAN data line in MT that references what the bike is pulling from the charger? I thought we talked about that in a discussion somewhere once.
 

snydes

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#12
For the sake of future reference I went back and was re-reading some of the discussion Bloak and I had on this. He had taken some excellent notes what he was observing during charging between motos. So it looks like the average draw on a pack that has been lightly “warmed up” was in the 2700-2800 VA range, and all the way down to 2550 VA on a pack that was warm to the touch. This is with the “fast (3.3kw) charger”. Definitely some throttling happening depending on pack temperature. This is where one of those misting fans could be a real benefit when trying to get the most charge back in between rides.