An Open Petition to Alta to let us create our own maps (and to modify Map 3)

Do you want to be able to adjust your riding maps?

  • Yes, I want to try to make the maps better for my riding style.

  • No, Alta should not allow me to do it.

  • My gas bike does not have 4 maps.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Philip

Administrator
Staff member
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3,314
Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ
#1
Dear Alta Motors!

Map 3 is weird and not very usable. It is jerkier than Map 2 but not any more powerful than Map 2 at higher speeds. Additionally, it is too far away from Map 4. Please make Map 3 to be exactly in between Map 2 and Map 4!

Racers, myself included, have been fiddling with the gearing, trying to make the most powerful map, Map 4, more rideable. We succeeded by running a 14/53 or 12/45 gearing. But now Maps 1, 2 and 3 are not very usable!

Let's stop fiddling with the chains, buying sprockets in varous sizes, and instead whip out our laptops and change the power curves as we see fit!

Vote if you agree!!! :D
 

Philip

Administrator
Staff member
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Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ
#3
Yes, I also liked Map 3 on hardpack tracks. But if you gear the bike up it becomes not as attractive. Too much of a drop from Map 4.

Likewise, if you do not gear up the bike, Map 4 is too big of a step-up in power from Map 3.
 

Fod

Well-known member
Likes
337
Location
CA
#4
You are too smooth. I have horrible throttle control, so I am in map 1 or 2 on hard pack and 3 for birthday cake/potting soil goodness! I have just changed my gearing to 13/47 yesterday but will not be able to ride for another 2 weeks. Excited to try the maps with the new gearing!
 
Likes
6
Location
ogden, ut
#8
Talking to Christian a sales rep for Alta he said on the MXR the maps where developed as 1 and 3 for offroad, 3 being the aggressive setting. Maps 2 and 4 are for mx with 4 beign the aggressive setting.
 

Mark911

Well-known member
Likes
837
Location
Corona Ca
#10
To safely create your own power and throttle response maps (they are typically two independent tables) you really need to be intimate with the strengths and weaknesses of the entire drive system. Without this, you'd be probably just as likely to create maps that do more harm than good. I don't think Alta is quite ready to divulge this kind of performance data yet. I'd think at first they'll release a tuning solution that allows the rider to pick and choose among the existing power, braking, and throttle response maps and allow only those combinations that have been proven to do no damage. I believe this could be done today as I suspect the display is wi-fi capable already. it just needs to be enabled via a firmware update.
 

Bionicman

owner of deleted file
Likes
336
Location
WA
#12
while it would be techno geek cool to adjust mapping to individual riding conditions or rider inputs but with regulations & such I dont see this ever happening from a budding manufactuer certaintly one that has their sights set as high as Alta's....
 

Philip

Administrator
Staff member
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3,314
Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ
#13
I dont see this ever happening from a budding manufacturer
Of course it should come from a budding manufacturer. With established manufacturers allowing all kinds of re-maps, it only makes sense if a budding manufacturer with its more nimble engineering team and less red tape would at least allow some of that, if not more.
 

Mark911

Well-known member
Likes
837
Location
Corona Ca
#14
To safely create your own power and throttle response maps (they are typically two independent tables) you really need to be intimate with the strengths and weaknesses of the entire drive system. Without this, you'd be probably just as likely to create maps that do more harm than good. I don't think Alta is quite ready to divulge this kind of performance data yet. I'd think at first they'll release a tuning solution that allows the rider to pick and choose among the existing power, braking, and throttle response maps and allow only those combinations that have been proven to do no damage. I believe this could be done today as I suspect the display is wi-fi capable already. it just needs to be enabled via a firmware update.
How many of us would feel comfortable populating a typical 20x20 (400 cells) fuel map table for a typical ICE bike? Same for timing and all the various trim tables? With the help of a dyno and the proper instrumentation (exhaust analyzer, knock sensors, etc) one at least has a fighting chance to create decent maps (ie, good power, good fuel economy, good drivability, and SAFE operation). Without the proper instrumentation and knowledge of what each parameter measured implies in terms of performance and reliability your stuck with the proverbial "seat of the pants" analysis. The use of this process alone is probably the number one reason for blown ICEs.

Given "unlimited" ability to access and modify battery discharge rates, motor amps, and ramp rates without any regard to the inherent thermal, electrical and mechanical limitations of the system is a recipe for a burnt motor at least and possible destruction of the entire bike in the event of a thermal runaway.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be able to do it, but we first need a set of "rules of thumb" to guide and constrain our decision making process. Just like air fuel ratios, combustion temperatures/pressures, intake air temp, detonation, fuel type, etc, help guide the ICE tuning process. There's simply not much data available as are the means of obtaining the required data. We (the tuning community) need to begin the process of establishing a database of knowledge just like the pioneer ICE tuners did "in the day". It can be an expensive experience (failures) but if done incrementally and responsibly a set of "rules of thumb" will evolve.

Unfortunately, Alta is holding the key for any independent progress along these lines. Without access to real time and logged operating data and the ability to modify the tables and parameters that influence performance we're kind of stuck. Same for advances in battery packs. I'm sure there would be several aftermarket companies interested in building custom "to customer spec" packs. However, it's more complicated than just connecting + to + and - to -. I'm sure there's Alta specific protocols and handshakes that must be made between the pack and the main processor, BMS checks, etc, that must be validated before the system will initialize. Without help from Alta it would be difficult to emulate or bypass these steps.
 

bluefxstc

Well-known member
Likes
714
Location
Boise, ID, United States
#15
I personally do not want to get into all the programming that Mark911 is talking about, but I would like to be able to select between the map modes that Alta has already developed. From the look of the quick start guides, Alta divides the map modes into Low, Mild, Medium and High for Traction, Regen, Response, Top and Bottom. In my case I have an EX that I believe is programmed with SM maps. My regen is noticeably different between map 2 & 3 along with between map 3 & 4 which is more aligned with the map descriptions in the SM maps than the EX maps. For my riding I like the regen in map 3 but the response is too sensitive, too twitchy. From my experiences converting cars to electric, there are only a couple of variables that you can adjust. In cars I can adjust the top, so how fast. I can adjust power delivery, so how quick or how long it takes to deliver max current and regen. I am not sure what all the areas (traction, regen, response....) Alta describes in the quick start guide are, but my guess is that several are the same thing. Response and bottom sound like the same thing to me and as they go up, traction goes down. Top I think is how fast. I know my bike in map 2 is faster (top speed) than in map 1. All I would like to be able to do is develop my own map from the map levels Alta already developed and my guess is that that comes down to response, top and regen with traction and bottom being marketing speak for response. For me mild response, medium, maybe high, top and medium regen would probably be perfect for 90% of my riding.

From the Redshift EX 2018 Quick Start Guide:


From the Redshift SM 2018 Quick Start Guide:

 

bluefxstc

Well-known member
Likes
714
Location
Boise, ID, United States
#17
Bikes pull firmware based on VIN, so it is highly unlikely you have the SM maps.
This much is absolutely certain, I have more regen in map 3 than I have in map 2 and more regen in map 4 than I have in map 3. I have factually established that by measuring the distance it takes me to stop on my EX, in all the maps, from same speed (as close as I could get it, 35 mph indicated on the display), exact same conditions (within minutes of each other) and exact same terrain (same point on the level, pave street, in front of my house). I did it twice to make sure one time was not a abnormality and the measurements between the maps were not even close, the regen is different. This seems to match the map description in the SM quick start guide and not the EX quick start guide which list the same level of regen for all the maps. I am absolutely certain I don't have that. Map 1 and 2 were very similar but map 3 was very different and map 4 is different from all the other maps. It is also certain that I have a bike that is styled and looks like an EX so I am assuming it is an EX. Ether the regen on my EX is programmed differently than described in the quick start guides or the quick start guides are wrong. Not sure which one is correct, but I guarantee that one is wrong.

I am also not complaining. I prefer the maps I have, to having the same level of regen in all the maps, so I would not want to have my bike reprogrammed. The entire point of the discussion is that it would be nice if Alta gave us the ability to manipulate the maps, within reason, so we could customize the bikes performance to our riding style.
 

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